October 7th, Interfaith Dialogue, and the Theology Behind Islamist Antisemitism | Tim Orr on FWI

0:02 Good afternoon and I want to welcome uh everybody to today's podcast. I'm Dexter Vanzle. I'm the managing editor of Focus on Western Islamism uh which is the uh counterlimist news outlet that was established by the Middle East forum in 2022. And right now today's guest is Tim our and he is a research fellow with the Institute for the Study of Global Anti-semitism and Policy otherwise known as ISGAP and is the author of a forthcoming book, What Anti-semitism Explains: Why Failed Ideologies Blame Jews.

0:38 Uh before October 7th, uh Tim's work centered on interfaith dialogue with Shia Muslim scholars. Uh and then he but he's written previously about how landing in London on October 8th, 2023 and walking into a demonstration that was already organized and already fluent in the language of resistance and apartheid before Israel had fired a shot convinced him that dialogue alone could no longer do the work that he thought it that he hoped it would. Since then, his research has shifted towards the theological roots of Islamist including how Iranian Shia messianic expectations shapes political behavior.

1:22 And today we're talking with him about essentially what he saw uh on October 8th, 2023. So talk to me a little bit about your background and how you got into all of this first. Sure. Sure. I I just had one little uh question. I actually landed on October Wow. All right. And and so October 8th, I begin to see the reaction and that kind of unfolded. Um but yeah, I um uh was about 12 years ago I began connecting with Muslims and that become kind of a Christian interfaith ministry for me.

2:05 um they afforded me opportunities to speak at mosque. So I was kind of a a a bit of a part of the CI intellectual community in uh um in in in London and but my motivation is more inner faith but not the inner faith that is associated with progressing Christianity. I I I'm coming from an evangelical theological background and and and so there's a little bit of difference there. But I think um what I did was and initially is is kind of take uh um moral idealism a little bit of it and and what that means is your discussions are based upon sort of uh Islam's best faith and and you're discussing different ideas. My objective

3:10 was to bring a Christian understanding and uh but um October 7th completely changed that and I always had this worldview but it but um it really um become very important on how I interacted with and and so my research sifted for more diagnostic kind of evaluations of Islam and it became PMIC because of what I saw, what I experienced and what I believe uh uh what need to be conveyed uh um because that experience was um so eyeopening. I knew about Islam. by studying it enough to know what the uh uh canonical Islam looked like and those kind of things, but I wasn't sure that

4:15 was present in the West. This experience completely changed my paradigm. You're a Christian, an evangelical You interacted and immersed yourself in the Shiite Muslim community in London. Yeah. and you basically wanted to be an uh with uh for Muslims in the West and and and kind of help non-Muslims in the West see Islam's best face. Yeah. Yeah. And uh because my basic motivation was relation relational but as a evangelical I also want to share my faith uh uh so they can see clearly the gospel. So it was more love and compassion oriented and that's still important but and I conveyed the truth in other words the differences between the two faith but I I didn't come with the critical lie that I do now.

5:15 All right. So what happened on October 8, 2023? Yeah. Uh well uh first of all I landed on October 7th. Okay. I had um you go over the pond so to speak and you lose internet So I had no idea what what had happened. But I was there to meet seite leaders for two weeks [snorts] and do the interfaith thing that I usually do. We talk about different texts. We build relationships and so on. But something uh uh um uh I I was on a text ring and uh after this had happened, after I had landed, I began to see the sort of the um the vocabulary often times that is used uh uh by progressives of apartheid and genocide and and those

6:20 kinds to things. A a and what I noticed there was absolutely no empathy And October 8th is when I begin to see it at large because I left. I began to see the protest. I began to see there was no empathy at all for what had taken There was no concern over the the massacre or the violence or the the kidnappings, the rapes, all the stuff that took place on October 7th. There was no Did Nobody said, "Hey, this isn't right." or anything or Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. I drove by on them.

7:04 I went to church on that Sunday. I drove by in my Uber uh uh car and and saw some of the protests. And there's kind of four things that on October 8th that that that really mattered to me. One was the speed in which uh uh people had already taken sides almost instantaneously. Later on, I found out that [clears throat] after a couple hours after this happened, they were already trying to secure licenses so they can have a protest.

7:47 I wasn't prepared uh for this. I was famili I I did a lot of Muslim interfaith work. I knew that Iranian Shia had a problem with Israel. That was not a surprise. Uh um but there was no empathy and sort of the ideology locked in and and of course the content mattered as well. The things I was hearing uh uh this sort of resistance kind of you know and and those kind of things.

8:31 But I'm I'm sitting there thinking that individual civilians had just been murdered and kidnapped and assaulted and it was uh um for the people to see and an unexplicable evil. A and and but the language that they were using made this abstract a a and uh rather than uh something concrete evil that had happened and there was obviously no moral hesitation. People were already making up their minds before any evidence at all was given. A and it quite frankly it caused me to re-evaluate almost um how do I dialogue

9:36 with w with people and of course I had to think it through with a strategy but I knew that what I saw and part of the intellectual community at I was in [snorts] completely evaporated because what I did was I uh stated publicly my support for Israel. Had you done that before October 7th with the the the uh the Muslim intellectuals that you were interacting with or Yeah. And we would have calm discussions and I would give it but nothing public and nothing that would publicly try to what their esqueological goals were and and because I wanted to um uh uh you know share my faith and with an American traditionally and that was certainly

10:40 true with me Israel is very important, right? And I knew they disagreed with it, but what I saw re there, so they already knew that kind of about me. But immediately afterwards, I spoke publicly condemning what had happened. All of a sudden, I was completely uh um uh disowned. Um, and this is uh um her she's a scholar.

11:16 She's a professor still there at Islamic College. She's a white American scholar. She's a Shia believer. Her name is Amina and Loaz. And here's what she said. I read your recent post on Facebook regarding the protest. I 100% support student protest as well as the process in London and attended them myself. I really can't stomach the views you are presenting which I find despicable and I'm not interested in debating it. I regret I supported you in your PhD your relationship with my colleague is your business, but please do not contact me again." And and we were friends when I would go there, we'd go out for coffee, but that um a deal breaker for her.

12:21 Now, the protests that you saw on October 8th, were they mostly leftists or were they uh some Muslims? I would say from what I can tell uh uh they're definitely leftists cuz they were um there were a lot of white people there. Right. and but they were Muslims as well. And you can you can kind of uh uh tell that I think sort of it's an interesting um relationship these two groups have what's called the you know the red green alliance and uh it's very Um it is uh the the progressives provide the moral vocabulary, but the Muslims provide often times the the the Palestinian cause and so on.

13:20 A and and and so I think they have the goal kind of. But I think uh eventually uh they're going to have to come to an impass and once they quote won or or whatever then uh they're not going to be continued allies. and Islam will win that medal. One of the questions that I have at this point is um obviously we know that the Islamist movement in the west hates Israel and Islamism in general and that and it's rooted in basically the canonical and theological underpinnings of Islam. We know that that's pretty well rooted just the same way that Christian anti-semitism was rooted in uh scriptural anti-Judaism and the doctrine of the early church fathers.

14:17 Right. Right. But it doesn't just you know it doesn't stop with Israel. did do you start to recognize or discern any sort of hostility towards the west in general on the part of the the uh the scholars that you had been dealing with that you hadn't seen before? Um I I think it was more because they're in the west they're governed by a redemptive narrative even secular philosophies and they want to bring about a certain liberation goal there and and yes I begin to to to see it. I really begin to see it with my relationship with my Muslim friends.

15:06 Um, I I uh came home and I talked to a mosque and they said uh you know I asked them what do you do with this wi- with uh um uh Hamas and they said well we believe they're freedom fighters and that was really a um thing that uh to understand for everyone. I I I think that they have a certain um uh esquetology and they're moving towards that and it's basically Islamic dominance. [snorts] uh and um those who are Jewish and those who are in the west are more powerful than they are. So they that that is an enemy that

16:09 must be defeated. Okay. And uh then you have on the left um it's different but they see the problem of the west as an oppressing system and so that has to be torn down. So uh for my estimation that is one of the connections because uh Muslims are 1% uh heading towards 2% of the population in the United States but they're far more influential than that. They have certain organizations. the Muslim Brotherhood. I is very much um a part of that and and and so um uh uh will not criticize Islam at all.

17:07 Because they divide everything to oppress and oppressor. And to them, Islam is the oppressed and they're going to fight on behalf of the oppressed. Your current research looks at how Irania Iranian Shia messianic belief in the Madi's return is uh used to justify anti-semitism as divinely Um and how confident are you that this framing is driving political decisions not just in teran but also on the part of Iranian supporters in the United States and in the West. You know, I've been in Shia Moss in uh in London and also Dearbornne um in in in London I saw a picture of uh Ayatollah Kmeni hanging on the wall.

18:03 And at a mosque in Dearborn, a Shia mosque in Dearborn. one guy said 95% of the people who attend the mosque essentially support Hezbollah. So, so talk to me about that. Yeah. Yeah. I I think it's really intertwined with their uh esquetology and there's a framing that starts with in early on with one of their early imams uh uh getting uh killed. And so there is sort of a you talked about the battle at Carbala.

18:43 Yes. Okay. exactly what I'm talking about. So, it kind of starts there and that frames the revolutionary type of idea, but that culminates in the return of the body. A and and and so that frames a lot of it. Uh because you you have um uh uh um this idea that really Kmeni really in a lot of ways.

19:23 uh because Shia Islam really changed uh be because of him. uh um in in in some ways in that he brought what what is called the guardian of the jurist. And in that you have the body is still the one who is all powerful is the one who has authority on earth because in Cathe theology there has to be someone on earth to guard the faithful.

19:58 And so what you have with uh uh with with Pani, he does this sort of um uh uh uh ingenuity, theological ingenuity to say, well, you know what? You need a human being to to to help sort of uh uh bring that about. You got to have some un earth. It's really uh years I mean de uh centuries ago there was a change in the theology from the Akbari system to the usili system and basically you can use independent reasoning uh uh um and uh he does that and he says well there has to be someone given the direction to the um so they can be rightly guided.

20:53 Okay. So he assumes that role. Now when when he assumes that role he brings about very political because prior to that um the idea was we're waiting for the money to return and and so we're not going to take that kind of authority uh uh uh to sort of engineer something like this. And and so that was their paradigm. But what Kami does, he now has authority and they uh uh they do that. But I think there's another thing that really plays into this is and that's the Iran Iraq that begins to uh he he implements this sort of theological ideology in the Iran and Iraq war and uh you have things like the IRGC.

22:00 he didn't quite trust the army that was kind of somewhat dedicated to the SA. So they needed an ide ideological army there. So the IRGC which is now more powerful there. So uh and that was part of what was taking place. And so out of that those things become normalized and it still exists. I've read and I've seen on display, you know, in Dearborn where there's a significant is people who essentially use like the battle of Carbala.

22:37 As essentially a a a model with which to kind of view the world and view the enemies of their community. Uh including the the Jews, the Trump administration, the Epstein One of the difficulties that I see is I have is trying to convince people that Muslims living in the west actually use that framework to motivate and direct their behavior even as they live in western democracies.

23:10 Yeah. Yeah. I I would think uh the one there that Carbala narrative is basically you have sort of the idea of their vers justice. the oppressed and oppressor kind of uh uh I idea and of course they're no oppressed and one day the body will liberate them. But that sort of they're oppressed is fairly in in in their understanding. What type of impact does does that carbala narrative have on the ability of uh Shia Muslims to kind of live in a pluralistic society in Western democracies? Because it looks like the second it got energized or activated by October 7th they kicked you to the curb.

24:01 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I I would say this that on October on that two weeks that I was there and I survived by Uber while I'm there. Uh so I I drive on the wrong side of the road so I I can't do that. So I go on Uber. I went on the 21 or 22 Uber rides. 18 of them were contentuous and um because I would bring up what do you think can happen? But it's almost like I got the feeling that they thought they were vindicated and and so so that narrative there uh um you know that's a pretty decent sample Yeah. you know, uh uh for that. Um I I think that um one thing that makes the carbala um entrenched, it is a yearly ritual that you practice physically. I'm sure if you grew up see

25:08 a Muslim, you grew up with a narrative If you went to the mosque, [snorts] you heard the um that narrative reinforced. I think that um that narrative is very entrenched. [snorts] Now, how it works out in Shia and Sunni [snorts] is a little different in America in my opinion. uh because you uh uh she is very hooked to Iran sort of the revolutionary and Sunni [snorts] uh by and large their strategy has been sort of the Muslim Brotherhood kind of where they connect with uh uh and they link with them with academics.

26:03 They're very much high kind of intellectual types that build the relationships, build alliances and and and so on, but they take a gradual you know, they they they say we have a hundred-year plan and right now they're halfway through that hundredyear plan, but they take a gradual approach and it looks far more tame than it what it really is. Um, and so it becomes more Now, I I think one of the reasons why I was so interested in having you speak is be and talking to you is because I I've seen a fair number of people and I've got a long history of dealing with issues related to this is the people in the interfaith community generally they they they have a legitimate desire to kind of see Islam in in the most benign light as possible.

27:02 Yeah. And the and the the thing is is that you were basically kind of um ambushed by reality. Yeah. Yeah. Uh people in the interfaith community, what's your advice to these people uh on the Christian side of the dialogue who say, "Look, we really need to, you know, Yeah. Yeah. is is that they they're willing to essentially ignore or deny real problems associated with how Islam is practiced in the modern world. So So what's your advice to them? I have little hope for them uh uh uh to be honest because they're so entrenched in their um what I'll call kindly a theology and um they are uh um sort of really immersed into the social justice woke narrative and it's so much part of their ideology. I I worked for a few years studying congregations [snorts] with Indiana University and I and um I I

28:08 think that um that seems to be not everyone of course but definitely the uh um and and that's the problem but when you talk about the interfaith they has a long history with white liberal Protestantism and they must come from a um a a that will not speak anything negative towards Islam.

28:43 It's a very idealistic kind of worldview. And so for them to uh change, they would really have to ab uh uh abandon at least to some degree that worldview and look at things like the canonical text and uh the objective, but they're sort of immersed in this post-modern idea and of subjectivity.

29:15 So they would have to uh abandon some of their core convictions uh to do that. And I was um talking to an a wife of an Episcopal priest, very prominent one one day on the on the airplane and what she said uh uh suddenly a little bit. She says, "We know one day we will no longer exist." And I thought they are committed even if it's it's sort of intertwined with that's their sort of bags of righteousness that that is their uh um we'll bring about will attempt to bring about social justice even if our denomination dies their version of social justice. So, um, uh, evidence mattered, I think they would already change by But I've seen very little shift

30:21 there. I know. I wish I could get a better picture of it, but I've just been doing this too long, right? the interfaith community is unable to basically muster the the honesty and the reality and the yeah uh the worldview necessary to to confront Islamism in the west then then what do we do? Yeah. I I I think um definitely the other Christian are important on this. And I think the most even though I'm not happy with the younger evangelicals, I think the evangelicals [snorts] will call out things. They will be the one they're they're one piece that they will uh be honest about Islam.

31:14 The sort of the canonical kind of um uh uh what the Quran says, what the Houd says, and and they're more willing to bring because they never bought in really to the interfaith Uh um Catholicism did. Um but we'll see what happens with that. Recently, uh uh they elected Amy Jill uh Levine uh uh to a prominent post. I I don't remember what exactly it is, but she's received a lot of anti-semitic responses to her appointment as a as a orthodox Jew on a Catholic thing. Um, so I I I think that there has to be a a continuing to expand allies on this subject particularly

32:18 I I I think there is a continued uh sort of um an effort to expose people. A lot of people, you know, they'll unfortunately get their media uh get their information from social media. Social media is a real big problem and you have podcasters that will take advantage of the way it works to uh to um make money or you know and and so that is one thing that has to be addressed. Now, I'm not a guy that believes in regulation like that. Uh uh because I I'm more fearful of what happens when they overregulate the internet. Uh uh but um something has to be done about the internet because it's persuading too many people.

33:19 Okay. Now, I got a question about have you interacted with any of the Muslim scholars that you were friends with or interacted with before October 7th more recently and and yeah, is there any hope for them to abandon the cause of Islamism or and to work to update how their their faith is practiced in the modern world or do they are they still um you know it well among Muslim scholars there's well there's one issue you you have sort of the Muslim scholars who are more believers first and scholars second then you have sort of the uh uh western university uh uh engage a little bit in criticism but within the scholarly enterprise itself you are rewarded for critical of Islam.

34:19 I mean critical of uh Israel. A a guy by the name of Edward say uh uh made it uh difficult to criticize and and his legacy continues to live on. That's why you have MESA, one organization that's more of the a policy institute kind of organization where scholars go and and give their research and Asmia uh uh that is um associated with Bernard and because they couldn't get a fair state there. I I know for me um I purposely am not linked too heavy with the university.

35:08 I would rather have my livelihood dependent on donors because I am free to speak truth right a and and I'm free to do that more and more and my scholarship is deepening this area. I'm seeing the relevance of that, And um I don't want to be hampered by uh uh anti-semitic bureaucrats, right? So now I guess one of the questions though is is it long term it's going to be up to Muslims themselves to essentially uh update how their faith is practiced if if that's going to happen.

35:48 Uh as Christians is, you know, all we can do is basically just try to hold the So Do you see any sign that that the line is being held and that uh that that people on the people within the Islamic world or with the community that you used to interact with have they started to say look we we have to do something different or or because the thing is is that they want the fruits of the west. They want the the you know the material benefits of living in western uh they want and but at the same time they are not interested in essentially embracing the habits of mind or patterns of speech that brought those those material benefits about.

36:32 Yeah. Some of that depends on whether if they're hooked on to an organization their their their livelihood is it is tied to that kind of narrative. But if you're talking sometimes to the everyday Joe or um and um he may be there just to make a living and um but he really doesn't have any institutional power. Um but I think on because the narrative is so strong in Islamic esquetology, it makes this is suddenly different because what Islam does, it promises And when you look at think about what Christians would think if a mayor in Saudi Arabia was a Christian and got elected may there and it doesn't happen. But I'm just saying if it did, what would you

37:36 think? Well, what is promised about the Christians must be coming true. Maybe there's a revival taking place uh uh there in Saudi Arabia. Now, think about what happens when you're a a Muslim and you see Manami look what the rhetoric that he's using, which is the same rhetoric you probably hear at the local mosque and you have backing and it looks like he's successful. Well, that sort of in some way solidifies the escatological and and and and so that makes it in my opinion very tough.

38:20 Okay. That's a cogent warning about I think the threats that we face. Um Yes. So and and that's why I say the work you do, the work I do is so important and and because it is really on the front lines of evil. I still want to build relationships with Muslims. I do that. That's the only way you convince people that uh show them love, that kind of thing. But I can't surrender the truth particularly as such as a a time as this. I don't think it was an accident for me to go there and get an education there, then land on October 7th and experience what I did. I feel an obligation and a purpose to engage in this kind of work.

39:22 All right. Well, I want to thank you, Tim, uh, for speaking with me today, and I want to thank our viewers for watching, uh, today's podcast. Thank you so much.