Oslo’s Deadly Legacy: Rethinking the Palestinian Authority with Maurice Hirsch

0:01 Good afternoon and welcome to the Middle East Forums weekly podcast. My name is Lori Rean and on behalf of MEF I want to thank you all for your continued support of our important work as well as to wish those who are celebrating a shinatovva. This afternoon I am pleased to introduce Lieutenant Colonel Maurice Hirs, an international law expert who specializes in the prosecution of terrorists, the Palestinian Authority, and the law applied in Judea and Samaria. Over the course of his extensive career, he has served in a number of senior positions in both the public and private sectors and currently serves as the director of the initiative for Palestinian Authority Accountability at the Jerusalem Center for Security and Foreign Affairs and as a research fellow with the Israeli Institute for Strategic Studies and with Israel's Defense and Security Forum.

0:46 Lieutenant Colonel Hirs is joining us this afternoon to share his insights on the failures of the Oslo Accords, the significance of the ongoing PA pay for slave payments, PA uh preparations for possibly a new massacre, and why Palestinians see the October 7th attacks as an extraordinary success. Uh Maurice will speak for about 15 minutes and then we'll turn to audience questions. So, if you'd like to ask a question, please feel free to use the Q&A function at the bottom of your screens to enter your submissions, and I'll do my best to get to as many of your questions as possible. Today's podcast is being recorded and will be available for future viewing. So, please share the link with those in your networks who you think would be interested in learning more on this very important and timely topic. Uh, welcome, Maurice, and thank you for joining us this afternoon. I hand the floor over to you.

1:32 Thank you uh uh so much for having me. Thank you to the M Middle East Forum um for the opportunity to address um really a very very wide and and and substantial uh public. Um what I'd like to do is get straight into it. 15 minutes isn't a lot of time. And and so after the the the the cordial shinatova um I would like to make the proposition that the Oslo Accords have failed. Absolute colossal failure. They were signed 30 uh uh three years ago with this goal of bringing about peace between Israel and the Palestinians. There was just one problem. The Palestinians never wanted peace. They never thought it was about a territorial argument. This is about a fundamental idealistic religiously driven war, a jihad of the Palestinians against the very existence of the Jewish state. They have said that from the start. Yasa Arafat famously in Johannesburg um calling the Oslo Accords nothing more than audab agreements um

2:35 the the the agreements that that Muhammad used in order to to to really lay aside the fears of his enemies and then attack them um and that is exactly what the Palestinian Authority did. That is what Yasa Arafat did. Instead of bringing about peace, which was meant to be the essence of um the Oslo Accords, the Palestinians saw the Oslo Accords as nothing more than an opportunity to implement what they call the plan of stages. This is the plan from 1974, the PLO plan, which says basically take any territory that we are given and then use that as a platform to then destroy the state of Israel. Um and and they've done that exceptionally well. Unfortunately, um they came into the territory under the opaces of what was meant to be a very well-framed e agreement of of peace, of conditions, of of really a mindset going forward. And yet they've

3:39 turned it into literally a bloodbath. Unfortunately, more Israelis have been murdered by Palestinians since signing these so-called peace agreements than ever before. And on the Palestinian side, more Palestinians have died as a result of Palestinian terrorism than ever before. And yet we are not seeing any movement. We're seeing 33 years of these agreements. Um we have a little bit of a dissonance in the Gaza Strip after the October 7 massacre. We say categorically there is no more place for the Palestinian Authority, for the PLO. And yet in when it comes to Judan Samaria, we're somewhat hesitant to give up on that um on on that entity and say, you know what, declare for finally what the Palestinians have said for years, that the Oslo Accords are dead. Now I want to I would like to try and explain the

4:42 death of the Oslo Accords using two specific examples. The first is pay for slay. What is pay for sllay? Pay for slay is the system under which the Palestinian Authority pays hundreds of millions of shekels every single year in rewards to terrorists. Every single year they spend almost 7% of their entire on payments, reward payments to terrorists. Every terrorist that is arrested by Israel gets a payment. I was a um for a substantial part of my career in the IDF, the head of the prosecution for Judea and Samaria. And and you look at these terrorists and they say, "We're going to jail, but we're going to get rich while we're in prison." Because of these payments, they don't see even life sentences for murders, multiple murders as a limitation because all they do is kidnap Israelis and then Israel is forced to release these mass murderers.

5:43 And so pay for slave really does feed this entire system. While I was head of the prosecution, we had evidence given by statements, testimonies given by terrorists. When they're asked, well, why did you turn to terrorism? They said because of the payments. Palestinian media watch, where I also worked um for a while, just recently released a video of a terrorist saying that without the payments to the terrorists, the terrorists wouldn't go out and and and commit acts of terrorism. I cannot understate the importance, the the the value for the Palestinians of the pay for slave program because it sets the scene. And why is it so fundamental in that environment of the failure of the Oslo Accords? Because the world knows about pay for slave. There isn't a government in the world that doesn't know that the Palestinian Authority has an institutional entrenched policy of rewarding terrorists for murdering Jews and they do nothing. Imagine if there was a similar program in any other

6:47 country. God forbid if America, if Canada were to announce, we have a program. If you murder a black person, God forbid, I say again, God forbid, we will pay you a financial reward. And yet, that's what the pay for slay is. That's what the Palestinian Authority has been doing for years. The world looks on and what do they do? the Canadian government, the the British government. They sanction ministers in Israel's government for being fanatics, for being a for being outrageously in favor of Jewish settlements in our ancestral homeland. Did they ever once consider sanctioning Mahmud Abbas, the father of this entire program toward reward terrorists, the dozens of different uh bureaucrats who are involved in this uh um multi- literally a multi-billion dollar program over the different years. Um and and no one says

7:52 anything. No one calls them for what they are. this is a terrorist organization incentivizing uh u murder. That's on the one hand. On the other um you have as part of the Oslo Accords, the Palestinian Authority was given um permission to set up a civilian police force. This civilian police force was meant to number no more than 12,000 people in Juda and Samaria. 4,000 um u um pistols, 4,000 rifles. That is the entire Palestinian police force. They don't have such great crime rates. And yet over the years they've built up a strong 70,000 people. Six and seven times the amount of of people they're meant to have in their security forces.

8:46 All trained, all holding weapons. Tens of thousands more weapons than they were ever meant to have. weapons that can be fired not only as even rifles, not only even as machine guns, but but shoulderheld missiles um that that that cause anti-tank missiles and and and that type of of of weaponry which they were never meant to have. They have a military training center in Jericho. It's literally called the military training center. And that's something that they were never meant to have. They were never meant to have a military. And yet the world again looks on and not only do they turn a blind eye many of the different actors including the United States unfortunately are still part of that mechanism of training these Palestinian Authority security forces the argument is that they are there to fight terrorism. Obviously the bad news is they have never fought

9:49 terrorism. They have never fought Hamas. They have never fought Palestinian Islamic Jihad. And they have never fought even the the PFLP, the Popular Fund for Liberation of Palestine. They are unfortunately being trained for one mission, I believe, and one mission And that is to carry out another October 7, but on a much wider scale. On October 7, the terrorists that traveled the furthest distance from Gaza traveled 22 around that Gaza Strip area, the Israeli civilian population was very and was very thin on the ground to start with.

10:31 If you now take a 22 kilometer radius around the green line around Judan, Samaria and you take into account that there is now a force which is 10 times the size of that that invaded G from Gaza into Israel on October 7. You can just imagine the levels of slaughter that potentially are going to happen if Israel does not act and does not act soon. tens of thousands of terrorists breaching all of the checkpoints um that lead straight into Israel into Israel's heartland into areas that are densely populated civilian areas with no soldiers around to stop the terrorists from murdering, kidnapping, raping, torturing, all of the things that we saw on October 7 happening again.

11:24 And so people ask me, well Maurice, what interest would the Palestinian Authority um have uh to do such a thing? And so my answer is are multiple. Firstly, pay for slave. What interest do they have for pay for slave? It's desperately bad. It promotes terrorism. They waste 7% of their budget because of the pay for slay. The US implemented the Taylor Force Act back in 2018. They lost $250 million a year. Even the Europeans cut back. They said they'll only fund some of the pro projects. And and yet the Palestinian Authority, we're now talking about 8 years down the line just from from from US potential US support. They have lost over $2 billion in financial support that they could have had. All they had to do was stop paying terrorists. And yet Mahmud Abbas says, "If I have one last penny in the coffers, I'll pay it

12:27 to terrorists." Because their belief is that you have to destroy Israel. You have to promote terrorism. The more dead Jews, the better it is. The closer they are to achieving their goal and then they have this force that they've built up. And then they look at October 7. Was October 7 a disaster for the Palestinians or what I believe they that they think as seeing the October 7 as an extraordinary success? Not not a simple success, an extraordinary success. Why? Since October 7, what has happened? A tens of thousands of Palestinians have been killed by Israel. They have no value for human life. Most of the people killed, despite uh um um the the the liels and and despite the disinformation, most of those killed are terrorists.

13:24 Dead Palestinians for them are wonderful. They can show their pictures around the world to vilify Israel. Since October 7, the international court, criminal court has opened criminal proceedings against Israel, arrest warrants against Prime Minister Netanyahu. tremendous success. Since October 7, the UN has adopted decision after decision after decision condemning Israel. Report after report, hundreds of millions of dollars have been spent vilifying Israel.

13:59 All successes for the Palestinian Authority. How many times did and did those same UN organizations criticize Kamas? Did any do any of you know and understand really the the depravity of the UN that to this day does not define kamas as a terrorist organization success again. And then you have this diplomatic political onslaught. Canada, France, the UK all recognizing the non-existent state of Palestine. So when you look at this situation from a Palestinian point of view, success after success after success after success, now you have even the useless idiots in England um who have decided to impose sanctions together with other countries on on on on the Jewish settlements and the product from the Jewish uh settlements in Judan, Samaria. What are they really saying to the Palestinians?

14:57 Here's another success on the way, another reward for the October 7 massacre. And unfortunately, what the international community has taught the Palestinians is that it doesn't matter how despicably they act. They can literally incentivize and reward people for murdering Jews. The world will say nothing. They can murder 1,200 people and massacre, rape, torture, kidnap. There is no vilification of the Palestinian Authority for its years of indoctrination, its education program that teaches these people to murder, that teaches mothers that it's a good thing that your children have been killed, martyed for the cause of destroying Israel.

15:46 and everybody turns a blind eye. Who do they vilify? They vilify the Jews. That is the message that the international community has given to the Palestinian leadership over and over and again under this umbrella of let's perpetuate the Oslo Accords. The Oslo Accords never talked about a two-state solution. And there is no two-state solution. There's only a two-state delusion because the Palestinian Authority, the Palestinian leadership does not want any type of peace or coexistence with Israel. They want Israel's destruction. They believe that their first step to Israel's destruction would be to create what they envisage as the embodiment of really Nazi ideology, creating a yuden fry state of Palestine, which they would then use their terror army to attack Israel to murder more Israeli citizens and again gain that political advantage in the international arenas. This is why

16:52 the Oslo Accords need to be recognized for what they were, a death trap, a death trap for Israel, a death trap for the Palestinians. And the sooner that we actually declare the death of the Oslo Accords, the better it will be for Israel and also the better it will be for the Palestinian people. Thank you so much, Maurice. That was um a very informative, very powerful uh 15 minutes of lots of information that you packed in there. And I hope that everybody follows your work on uh on X all the social media, but also at where you've written a number of amazing articles and essays and and provided reports with lots of information. Um I I I'm going to take the liberty of asking the first question as the moderator and um in just prior to 107 there was a lot of analysis surrounding the failure of the accords on the 30th anniversary which was uh September 13th 2023 again just before 107 and at one of the 30th

17:55 anniversary events was a conference in Israel that was sponsored by the Israel Defense and Security Forum, the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs and the Israel Victory Project which is a project of the Middle East forum. Um there were a lot of brilliant insights that were shared during that conference. Amamira Vivi noted that one of the biggest failures was choosing to do business with the murderous terror organization like the PLO. Uh Julie Edelstein concluded that the Gaza withdrawal didn't work out because you can't run away from reality. Um Avidi stated, I'm going to quote him, "There is no real prospect at the moment of any kind of peace, especially because Makmoud Abbas is the same Abbas who was a terrorist long ago. He doesn't really want to be remembered as someone who actually made peace. So, we'll have to wait until the day after Abbas. So, my question to you, Maurice, now we have this free Marwan Bargoodi movement as if he's some innocent Palestinian leader um rather than the cold-blooded murderer terrorist that he actually is. What are your thoughts on what happens post So, I unfortunately I don't see any type

18:59 of change uh um in the winds in the Palestinian Authority. There are the different uh um the different people who are trying to claim his throne cl trying to claim that they would inherit him. Mahmud Abbas actually tapped um his now deputy in the PLO to be the next person who would be the president of the of the of what he calls the state of Palestine. So who is Hussein? Hussein according to a judgment of the of of the the Jerusalem district court in 2001 suicide bombers came into his office. They were brought in by other people. He was then the head of fatak in in Judan Samaria. They came into his office just to as as really as a as part of their send off mission. Um, Sen apparently reached into his drawer, drew out a number of hand grenades and a and and and a wad of cash, gave it to the suicide bombers and said, "Just make sure that you do the job properly." This is the next guy coming along. He is not a moderate. He is just another terrorist

20:03 in a suit. He believes in exactly the same positions as Mahmud Abbas. He believes in the destruction of the state of Israel. And unfortunately he's also being pushed further and further into a corner by the international community by the UN that says the UNRA and the rights of the Palestinian Palestine refugees are inaliable and can never be negotiated away by the Brits who want to impose sanctions and support the creation of a Uden fry state. All of these things do not support the idea of a pragmatic or a flexible leader after Mahmud Abbas. If you have people like Jiu Rajub um who's also one of these potential candidates who has um who on television has said, "I support murdering Jews, but we need to do it carefully. You can't blow up a boss a bus in Tel Aviv, but if you kill settlers in Jerusalem, then that's okay.

21:04 He's not going to change. He's on a record of saying that if he had a nuclear weapon, he would have used it on Israel. He's no change, is he? Majid Faraj, the head of the security forces, he's no change either. Mahmud Abbasa's right-hand man. People are talking a lot about Marwan Barguti serving five life sentences. He was the he was the he was the life and soul of the second uh and of what they call the second nint inifada really that terror that wave of terror. He started the alakamata brigades. He was the one who who really armed the terrorists. It was fat who led that terror wave. No kamas kamas joined afterwards and it was all under the push of Marwan Bargoti. You're talking people talk about Muhammad Daklan coming back from the the United Arab Emirates. Let's not forget Muhammad Daklan was a terrorist in Gaza implicated in a number of bus bombings in which Jews were murdered as well. Unfortunately appears that in order to be a terror a a leader

22:09 of the Palestinians, you need to be a terrorist who murdered Jews. that does not give itself or lend itself in any way to flexibility, pragmatism, or any hope of a change. It lends itself only to the same uh death and destruction that we've seen under the Oslo Accords until now. That's honest but very discouraging response. It's what I expected, but very very discouraging. Um, Maurice, someone is asking um, why does Israel allow pay to slay to continue and can bank accounts be seized or payments disallowed? And, and I would just take that a little further and ask you if there's a way for Israel to finally put an end to the practice and in particular um, can you touch on one of the conclusions in one of in a report that you wrote that was um, entitled, did the PA's pay for slave policy facilitate the October 7th massacre? you you had a lot of conclusions in there, but one of them noted that um numerous terrorists released under the 2011 Shalit prisoner exchange resumed terrorist activity

23:13 activity shortly after their release. So given that knowledge, why does Israel continue to engage in these prisoner swaps um which only appear to lead to more Israeli bloodshed? So you've got this pay to slay that they haven't been able to stop and then you know on the other hand they're engaging in prisoner swaps that seem to encourage it. So what are your thoughts on all of that? I on pay for say I believe that there is very much more that Israel could be doing and should be doing um but unfortunately isn't doing whether it be from from from many years ago just stopping the transfer of u um the taxes that Israel agreed to collect and pass on to the Palestinian Authority as part of the Oslo Accords that should have stopped entirely until they gave up um um paying and rewarding terrorists for murdering Jews. Um, Israel did take steps in 2018 with a law that punishes the Palestinian Authority by deducting the amount that they paid to terrorists in in the prior year from the the the next year's income. It was a step

24:15 forward, but it wasn't sufficient. I believe there are m many more steps that could be taken uh um and and and really should be taken by Israel in order to stop those payments. Um, I believe that uh um there are tactical steps. For example, the payments are made uh um through standalone ATM machines um that aren't connected to the Palestinian banking system. And I believe that with a little bit of effort, the IDF could map out where those um ATMs are. And when the Palestinian Authority announces that the money has been deposited into them, ready for the terrorists to take the to draw them out, we could go in and seize those ATMs. Uh um and in one night we would uh uh um seize 50 million checker worth of terror award payments and the PA would have a tremendous pos um problem. Then moving forward, unfortunately you have constant interference from different actors um always uh um warning of the collapse of

25:18 the Palestinian economy, the collapse of the Palestinian banking system. Let it collapse. There should never be a system in which Jews are the subject of a reward on their head. every every Jew walking around and every person even perceived to be a Jew. Taylor Force, the the the the law that passed in in America in 2018, Taylor Force wasn't Jewish. Taylor Force um was a US um West Point graduate, served in Iraq in Afghanistan. He was just walking down the prominade in Jaffa when a Palestinian terrorist perceived him to be Jewish and murdered him. that is something which cannot be uh accepted and so much more could be done uh um uh in in Israel within the the payments are also made to uh Israeli Arabs who have participated in terror and a little bit more has been uh done there as well. Um unfortunately this whole system fueled

26:20 itself and and really did lead to October 7 that the the as pay for slay um the there there are three distinct parts of pay for slay. One is paying uh um allowances to the families of dead terrorists and to injured terrorists. Put that aside. Then there's payments to reward payments to terrorists while they are in prison. And then there's the complimentary step of payments to terrorists who have been released. Part of that system says that if you were in prison for 10 years or more, you basically get a pension for life based on and the calculation of the the value of the of the pension is based on how much time you spent in prison. And that you get without any conditions. You don't have to work. In fact, the law says that all you have to do is if you are called to work, then you have to come. Yikoir, the architect of the October 7 massacre was a recipient of those payments for many years. Many, many other terrorists

27:25 released in the Shalit deal were recipients of those payments. while they were planning and executing the October 7 massacre, they were on the payroll as employees of the Palestinian Authority. That's why I believe that the Palestinian Authority also bears responsibility for those payments. Uh um the the the second part of your question is is really the the the disaster uh um that that that we keep on playing into. Part of the October 7 massacre was a specific goal to kidnap as many Israelis as possible because Israel has allowed the terrorist organizations to to fall into that understanding that it doesn't matter how many people um are convicted of murder. If you kidnap Israelis, we will always release more people. It started back in 1970. Uh um when when we released one terrorist for one hostage, it then grew in 1985 to 1,185 terrorists who then were the backbone of

28:32 the first inifada in return for six Israeli soldiers. It then grew through the Oslo Accords. thousands and thousands of these terrorists who were released and obviously culminating with um the the the Shalit deal uh um 1,027 people including Yik Sar and many other participants in the in the October 7 massacre being released in return for one soldier. Again, there there was more that could have been done, but unfortunately, Israel's security and legal system together absolutely prevented Israel from taking more steps going forward. I uh uh spent some time trying to help the Golden family back in 2020 uh um develop a plan as to how to put pressure on Kamas to release the body of Hadar and of Aron Shaul and his Shamas and and and Aberamistu. How do we apply pressure to them? And what I saw was that going back 20 years to being a

29:34 prosecutor in the Gaza Strip, we sent many of these Gaza strip terrorists um to jail for many, many years. They were now being released back to Gaza. They were the backbone of the Kamas missile projects being released back to Gaza. And my argument was that we need to hold them in extended uh um custody in order to use them as bargaining chips to bring about the release of Hadar and and and Hisham and Aba. Um unfortunately at the time um Minister of Defense um Benny Gans refused um to implement that suggestion claiming legal barriers.

30:19 Obviously on October 7 that that exact theory was implemented one to one. Suddenly the legal barriers had disappeared. But that's an entirely different conversation as to the legal strangle hold um that the legal institution has over Israel's security institutions. Uh um uh but again that's um outside the the scope of at least today's discussion. Um thank you Maurice. I we're we're sort of at the end, but I want to try to get in one more um sort of three-part question. Someone has asked about um [clears throat] how Israel treats Jewish um they're using the term hoodlams in uh Judea and Samaria. I presume they're talking about in the same way um they do Palestinian hoodlams. And I'd like to sort of take that a step further and ask you, you know, when when we talk about Judea and Samaria. Um, if you can touch on the treatment of what we're seeing a lot in the papers these days about violence from the quote unquote

31:21 settlers. Um, but there's also, you know, there's some people that are viewing this expanded construction in Judea and Samaria as Israel quietly taking the necessary steps that would lead to eventual either annexation or at least prevent um the formation of of a Palestinian state. So, do you see um these expanded settlements as something that is being um done in a beneficial way for for Israel in the long term, especially considering demographic concerns? Um, and then also, you know, when you I just want to have you touch on the 70,000 armed security forces. Um, and and I'm curious as to whether or not Israel is making the same mistake there that it made with Hamas and this misconception that these security forces are going to serve Israel's interests. I mean, you have shared that it's it's a big concern, but why why is the Israeli government allowing this to continue?

32:16 So, we've got sort of a three-part question there on Judea and Samaria, if you can answer that. Um, so it is my belief that that the Jewish people should settle in every single part of the area to the uh the west of the Jordan River. That is our ancestral homeland. That is the area that was given to the Jewish people as part of the the mandate for Palestine back in 1922. And nothing has changed from a legal point of view since then. Israel should be settling more and more and more people there. Um the goal should be uh certainly to get to a million people u um a million Israelis living in Judea and Samaria. Uh um certainly by the the the end of next year and expanding every single settlement um should be the order of the day. Um that is what is required uh um really of Israel to ensure its security. The settlements are an anchor for security around them and they are and their existence prevents really much

33:19 more expansive Palestinian terrorism. That's on the one. On the other hand, there's this trope running around the world of the settler violence and and here you can go on to the uh the website of the Jerusalem Center of Security and Foreign Affairs and I have already gone on record saying that there are let's not call them hoodlams. They're exactly the same unfortunately as the Palestinians. They are terrorists. Some of them are violent. They act they they they they carry out wantant acts against Palestinians for no good cause. We are talking about a group of people that at its core is maybe 200 300 people. Let's even go crazy and and say that it's a thousand people out of 750,000 law-abiding Israeli citizens who live in Juda and Samaria.

34:19 That's the settlers. I am one of them. My children are one of them. I live in in in a settlement just to to the south of of Jerusalem called Def Frat. We are not violent. We are law, we are the most law-abiding population in Israel. Um, according to the statistics of the Israeli police and yet this trope of the settler violence runs around. It's fueled by the UN. It's fueled by all of the anti-Israel organizations. It is a lie at its essence. Its goal is to undermine Israel's very existence. It's not about the settlement. That's a lie, too. because they consider the settler islands to be everything that includes Jews from anywhere, never mind where they live, going up onto the Temple Mount. That is considered settler violence. The Jews are invading the Temple Mount. It doesn't matter where those Jews physically live to be designated by the terrorists and their

35:21 supporters, including the UN, as a settler. So we Israel needs to do more against the Jewish terrorists without question. And I feel that we are uh uh missing out there and because of our absence of a coordinated and strong policy against those terrorists, we are losing good friends. When ambassadors like ambassador Huckabe needs to call out those terrorists, we are losing good friends. These people are bad apples.

35:56 They do not represent Israel. They do not represent the Israeli population. They do not represent the settlers. They are called out by myself as a settler, as someone who believes that we should be settling in the entirety of Judea and Samaria, but not with want and violence. That is unacceptable. And more needs to be done. As regards um the the Palestinian Authorities terror army, um I believe that following the the release of of our report two months ago, there have now been a number of discussions on the subject. Prime Minister Netanyahu has mentioned it, Minister of Defense.

36:37 Um Katz has talked about it, the chief of staff has talked about it. there is a discussion going on and and that has been sparked by the report. I I I I believe it as a consequence of the report uh um that that is now really bringing this to the forefront. Um I fear that we are still to a great extent in the same conception that it was held by the government and some of the security forces on the 6th of October that the PA doesn't have an incentive to act. I believe that is fundamentally wrong, fundamentally erroneous, and that they do have an incentive to act and that they will act and that we won't get the intelligence warnings that we also didn't get for the October 7 massacre.

37:26 And it will be a terrible potential massacre. And I believe that we need to do more immediately in order to not hide that reality, not shy away from that reality, but to face it head on we face a another massacre. And so either we prepare to dismantle that force or as I've said before, we start preparing graves because the massacre will come.

38:00 Well, I I would have loved to have ended on a on a positive note. Um, but you know, the reality is what it is and you're living it. You're living it, Maurice. And so, God bless you for for doing that. Um, thank you so much for being with us this afternoon. Really appreciate it and you shared so much information. I hope everyone follows your your important work. Again, I I've seen you on X and I your your articles, your reports quite extensive on their website. Uh again, thank you for all for all you're doing. We hope to have you back. There were still some questions I didn't get to, but um very informative report. So, I'm wishing everybody again a shinatva and uh we'll see you. We're not going to be with you next Monday on Yam Kapoor, but we will see you the following Monday. Uh this Wednesday, Ashley Perry, Israel Insider Wednesday at 3 p.m. Thank you all again.

38:48 Thank you very much for having me. Be well.